Real(ty) Talk
Real(ty) Talk
From Ruin to Renovation Success
Have you ever wondered how to bounce back from a major property disaster?
This week, we dive into the rollercoaster of property renovations and real estate adventures! From quirky neighbor antics to inspections you can't afford to skip, we have stories that will keep you entertained and informed. Highlighting the nitty-gritty of budgeting for construction, dealing with ever-changing building codes, and those sneaky unexpected costs (looking at you, electrical expenses).
Thinking about flipping properties for profit? We'll discuss the pros and cons of all-cash deals vs. loans and explore how high interest rates and transaction duration can impact your returns. Learn from our real-life experiences about the uncertainty of project delays, the threat of squatters, and the importance of diligent oversight.
Tune in, laugh with us, and let's learn from each other's successes and stumbles. It’s going to be a fun and informative ride!
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Suzanne Seini:
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Paul Hanson:
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Stephen Couig:
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And this contractor did not anticipate weather, so they took the roof off the house. That was the last thing. The whole interior was done. Oh yeah, realizes rain's coming in. It's a long weekend, it's around Christmas, new Year's, and he goes on vacation and they put tarps over the roof. The tarps fail. I mean it probably costs us 150 to 200 grand because we had to redo all the drywall, we had to tear the floors out, put it back in. You know it was a really, really big, big mistake. Yeah, welcome back. Episode number seven of the Realty Talk podcast. I am with Suzanne Sini today, the queen of the closing table. I need to come up with better nicknames.
Speaker 2:I know, I know we need something good for you. I am, with Suzanne Sini today, the queen of the closing table. I need to come up with better nicknames. I know, I know we need something good for you too. I feel like I'm failing that I haven't come up with that nickname for you.
Speaker 1:I don't have many great ones. I've been known as the janitor at Bye Bye House.
Speaker 2:Okay, take out the trash. Today you were IT at.
Speaker 1:Bye, bye House. My wife made the joke this morning. My daughter goes to a school and she wears uniforms and I wore a shirt that matches their uniforms. Every time I wear this shirt she says oh, are you going to school with Remy today? So I don't think she likes this shirt.
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe we're gonna table that one Excited to catch up, though We've got some really interesting content to discuss today, yeah, and some unique topics, but I always feel like it's good just to check in and talk through, you know, current events, what's happened in the last week? I've really been interested. You know, we talked a lot about micro markets last week. We talked a lot about micro markets last week.
Speaker 2:What have you seen in the last week through the brokerage? You know? I think we're still seeing similar trends. I think what can be difficult too is the agents are having a little more of a tough time comping homes because things haven't been moving as quickly in certain markets. So they're really having to go back quite a bit in order to actually find what they think the value of the home is going to be. And I think they're putting in a lot more work than just you know. If there's a model match or something just sold two days ago because things aren't moving as fast as they were before, you know there's a little more of a question mark for what homes are selling for. So we're seeing that. And then I'd also say I know we'll talk about this in more detail in a future episode, but with the NAR changes, I think it's important just to touch on that.
Speaker 2:I think you know it's now we're coming to the point where we're actually starting to implement some of the new forms that have been released by CAR, and so there are some question marks around that as well, but some significant changes as far as transparency goes and you know, like I said, I know we'll talk about that more, but I think it's really important for the agents to have these candid conversations with their buyers now, which could feel a little more uncomfortable, but the industry is feeling that right now and agents are kind of going through the motions of figuring out how they're going to navigate this new world to them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the inventory thing is kind of interesting because in the last 24 hours I think I've had four conversations about these micro markets. And you know, today we're in a meeting talking about inventory across the United States, specifically Florida, and you know this deal we were looking at not for buy-buy house but, you know, for different business. You know we had three different average days on market from three different people and as an investor, we're always so focused on duration and other things. Understanding how long it takes to sell something is a really critical data point.
Speaker 1:I also think for agents it's really critical to understand those average days on market and so defining that is really complicated because you can look at the zip code level, you can look at the county level. Really critical to understand those average days on market and so defining that is really complicated because you can look at the zip code level, you can look at the county level or the city level.
Speaker 2:You can look at the amount, the value of the property. There are so many factors that and so many ways that you can skew that data.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this particular property we were talking about by zip code had inventory of 30 days, by county had 165 days and by city had 365 days of inventory.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's yeah.
Speaker 1:So it was in Florida and so it's a really complicated issue. So that might also be making it difficult for agents to comp, you know, and have meaningful conversations with sellers or buyers, and you know I think we're feeling that. That too, depending on the market, that it's in Right.
Speaker 2:So we have been getting a lot of questions and I think this is perfect for you to touch on, because people are interested in doing flips. I think everyone's kind of interested. There's a lot of glamour, it seems behind that, but there are also some other aspects that maybe aren't talked about as much. So I think the question that everyone is asking is like what do I need to know and what do I need to focus on?
Speaker 1:In a flip, in a fix and flip, or investment strategy Exactly.
Speaker 1:So what we talked about was discussing, I guess, from our vantage point or my vantage point, the top three mistakes that somebody could make in a fix and flip transaction. So if you're not familiar or if this is the first time listening to the show, my name's Paul. I run a company called Bye Bye House. We're a single family value add investor. So we buy existing real estate you know single family homes we work on it, make it pretty, we open up floor plans you know we try to appeal to a younger buyer on trend, and then we sell, or in some scenarios we'll hold and put a renter in.
Speaker 1:So that would be traditionally a fix and flip. And we get a lot of input from people oh, how do I get in, or how do I start, and what's the first one that I should do, and everything. So we felt like the top three mistakes would be useful to discuss. So we'll name those three real quick and we'll dive into each one of them. So number one mistake I think that fix and flip investors or if you're the local dentist in Des Moines and you're going to do your first transaction, it really is the house that you're purchasing, right? So you know that's pretty vague, right, so you know that's pretty vague, but when we look at an asset to go and purchase, there are hundreds of different characteristics that are important to us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we were just talking about days on market. What we try to look at is the existing structure. If you have to add square footage or add an ADU to justify the return, then it's that it's not a fix and flip transaction. That's a development transaction. If your schools aren't great, if every other house in the neighborhood is also a dump, I mean that could be a good thing or a bad thing. But I think it really comes down to defining your vision for that specific transaction.
Speaker 1:So, when you look at a house, what are the characteristics of that house? Is it a Spanish style home? If it is, then you need to lean into a Spanish style home, right. And if you're going to do that, then you need to justify your exit or your ARV, your after renovation value based on Spanish style homes Right. And we run into this issue in Southern California all the time, where we'll look at a Tudor style house that's surrounded by Spanish style homes and you're pretty, you know you're extrapolating what you actually think the exit price is going to be, because there's not a good example of a Tudor that's been fully renovated on trend, right. If you try to take a Tudor and make it look Spanish, it's really up in the air. I mean, it's a huge question mark, right?
Speaker 1:Right think you know for the first one, the specific house that you're acquiring. It really comes down to the style of the home Layout is a huge one. You know adding a bathroom or adding a bedroom if that's what you have to do to get to that right ARV, you know making sure that you can actually do that Right.
Speaker 2:With permits or, you know, if it's even able to be done with the home.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean sometimes layouts just don't work Right To switch, you know, things up and add a bath or add a bedroom, and I hear that all the time. I mean I talk to agents, you know, in a lot of different brokerages, you know brokerages about a fix and flip transaction. They come to me and say, hey, I have this super simple, very easy one In a fix and flip transaction.
Speaker 2:They come to me and say, hey, I have this super simple, very easy one.
Speaker 1:Uh, in fact this happened two days ago. Like this is a layup, you know, just take it at list price. And when I dug into it it's like, well, area's great House is really cool. Uh, but it's a three one and it's 1300 square feet. Where am I putting another bathroom? And every comp you delivered me as a three-2 or a 3-3. This is a family neighborhood with perfect nines and tens for schools. So it is a family that's going to be moving in.
Speaker 2:With one bathroom. That doesn't work, no.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, you know we have a pretty. It's not. We don't own it. So full disclosure. We're not getting paid by these people, but we use a tool called Cubicasa. It's just an app you can download on your phone and it allows either an agent or us to get a floor plan and a GLA in 60 seconds. So you walk through, you scan the property and that really has been beneficial to us because that can answer some of those questions of how do we recalibrate the layout. You know a lot of older inventory. You know homes that are built in the 50s and 60s, which you know, let's face it, like the vast majority of America. You know homes near the major cities in America were built during that era. Right, the style back then was, you know, different than it is, than what we are demanding now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what we are demanding now? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So a lot of closed off houses. You know, you've got a kitchen that's maybe galley style and a formal dining room and a formal living room and then a formal family room and then beds and baths. And you know, right or wrong, hgtv, in a fix and flip environment, is putting out huge open concepts. Yeah, and so that's also something to consider, right? So, yeah, I think the first mistake that you would make is getting emotionally attached to a structure and not really dinging into those characteristics that might determine your ARV or your construction expenses to get it ready to hit that number.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean as an agent. We say it all the time. So there's location, location, location, right. So I think that's huge. You touched on schools, but also you know that I mean we have we talked about this recently where it's very possible that you can make this house perfect, but it really doesn't matter how perfect you make it, because there's maybe some loud noise or something else is going on. So it's really important and I think, through the process and because you guys have done so many, I think you've learned to be a little bit more picky than most, whereas I think and I think that's you know to touch on just this one in particular. I think you have to think about all of the aspects. I mean, you know, when you're going into this and I think the average or maybe first-time investor really doesn't even know what could come up throughout the process- yeah, I'm laughing because you said, like loud noise, we have a transaction that we're in the middle of.
Speaker 1:Well, we've completed the renovation and I mean I vividly remember going through the underwriting of this specific house. It's a beautiful house and big vaulted ceilings. It does have more of a closed off feel to the floor plan and layout. We actually elected to keep it that way. There's an ADU, so it's a really cool, very, I would say, a very simple transaction for us to really execute well and make good money. And we've had a hell of a time selling it. What we did underestimate, we underwrote to the fact that we're closer to a freeway and there's some commercial. What we did not anticipate is our neighbor and you know, without giving away too many details, I mean this neighbor is just, you know, a funky individual. We a lot of times actually that's part of our underwriting is talking to neighbors and just getting a really good feel walking the neighborhood. In this scenario, things appeared to be normal, but midway through our renovation, this homeowner I can't lie about it, I mean they added, and I'm not exact, you know, yeah, yeah, this is a real.
Speaker 2:this is a true story. You've seen it?
Speaker 1:Yes, they're like seven or eight foot gargoyles that this person added on top of their house, staring into our house. Yeah, yeah, I mean and how do you underwrite to that?
Speaker 2:You can't underwrite to that, can't underwrite to that, and you I mean you could, you would not have been able to guess that that would have been the addition that they would put on their home. But uh, but yeah, I mean it's things like that where it's almost like you have to act as if with some of these and and just build that into your model. You, you know, because who knew, who knew?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean that's a good point. I mean, I guess one other point that I would make on that is and I'll probably hit on this on every all three you know mistakes that people make. But give yourself time to do inspections, because you really don't know what you're getting into until you understand all of the specifics right. So we always order, you know, sewer inspections and roof inspections and general inspection, foundation inspections. We try to get it. It doesn't necessarily change our opinion of doing the deal or not, but it gives us a roadmap of what we're getting into, which is one of the future mistakes that people might make. But you know some of. But some of those things would have not come up during that example Right, right, never know.
Speaker 1:So number two I think this is the second most common mistake that people make is underestimating construction expenses. Right? So fix and flip is kind of a weird term because, by definition, it's a quick transaction Get in, fix something up. And definition it's a quick transaction get in, fix something up and then sell it. When you, when you talk through that, what you're really saying is hey, this is a good or you know less than good home in a good area. I'm going to recalibrate the layout or I'm going to just put new cosmetics in and that should provide, you know, value, and then someone's going to buy it at a premium.
Speaker 1:But understanding what that means from a construction standpoint and doing it right, I think is a critical mistake that a lot of people make and we've made. I mean, we've gone into transactions where we have inspected everything, we think we have a really clear, good understanding of the way the home was built and then when we start to get into demolition and go to execute our plan, we have, you know, surprises, right, right, and that one, you know, it's a common mistake that we see people make. You know, estimating your construction expenses correctly. I think it's actually pretty simple During your contingency phase, if you have one of those on your purchase. It really is just having a great contractor that you trust to walk the property and give you a formal bid before you take off, because that formal bid high, medium or low is going to be a benchmark for you to make a good investment decision, and you know. That being said, you know contractors. I mean, let's call it what it is it's an extremely low barrier of entry. You know, I've heard some interesting statistics At a national level younger generations aren't very savvy.
Speaker 1:We have a lack of plumbers, we have a lack of skilled trades, and so we've seen those costs consistently going up on top of material increases, and so increases are actually somewhat simple to solve for. The bigger issue is having a contractor that's actually available. When they give you a bid to execute on a timeline, what we see most either borrowers, if we lend capital to people, or even in our internal business where we're fixing up and selling a property. The biggest issue we see there is that the contractor takes on too much work and then they're unable to execute on time, which then starts to hurt. Number three, which we'll talk about here in a second, but you know, I think you know construction is not simple, right, like you're actually going in and creating value and so managing a project on budget, yeah.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of moving parts and, like you said, I mean things are pop. They shouldn't pop up, right, but sometimes they do so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I can give you another example of something that's really complicated to forecast. I mean, in a fix and flip transaction, obviously, check in with your local municipalities and understand what kind of permitting requirements you might have. Right, we see a lot of investors that never pull permits and then they're midway through construction and they run into issues. Right, they get red tagged and need a permit. One that would also be difficult to forecast, which we've experienced, is we will go and pull permits, we'll start construction and then codes might change at the new year. So if you're buying something and your permits haven't been approved and then the code changes, you might get stuck going back and doing a deeper scope of work than you initially anticipated. On a deal recently, we had about $15,000 worth of electrical expenses that we didn't forecast because this city specifically required a code change.
Speaker 2:Wow yeah.
Speaker 1:And we would have never been able to do that.
Speaker 2:You can't, yeah and you can't. That's not really something that you would be able to forecast, for. I guess you know I mean looking back maybe you know that if you're going to be holding it a while, but you didn't know you were going to be holding it that long, Right, so it's hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I mean, I think the we're talking about, like the issues. I think the solution there, you know, and what we've adopted in our business, is that we will get a formal bid, uh, from not one but three contractors before we purchase a property and then, uh, we'll always add a contingency from kind of the average If it's an area where we're a little more concerned or it's a heavy rehab, you know, then we go above that average, we take the most expensive bid, we'll add a 10% contingency, and then, you know, and then we'll execute. But giving yourself a little bit of room for error I think is really critical, because construction's tough.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Once you start opening walls up, you don't know what you're going to find yeah. And, um, you know, most of those things should be not very expensive to fix, but uh, but some can be.
Speaker 2:So you mean, you guys just aren't getting in there rolling in the dough immediately and uh, and in the dream, because I think perception at least from most I would say is that fix and flip. Investors come in and they buy the house low and then they make a ton of money and I think it's important for us to talk through, like most of the time that's just not the case.
Speaker 2:I mean, yes, there is a a profit there that should be made for the the time effort you know um and skill being being put into it, but I think there's a there's just kind of a skewed perception yeah, I think it's an incredibly difficult business.
Speaker 1:Yeah, uh, I mean, I guess my perspective, you know transparently is you can do really well if you're small. I mean you don't have any infrastructure. If you're just a single person doing a transaction, you know, maybe you do one a year. Yeah, I think you can do well. You can also lose money. Yeah, if you're scaling a business to do multiple transactions, it's incredibly expensive to build process in a way where you can handle more than one or two or three of these at a time. And you know I can speak very transparently like it is not an easy business. Construction is really really really hard. You know, if people aren't getting paid right on time, they're not going to go to work Right. There are a lot of, you know, things you can't control.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:During the middle of COVID there were supply chain issues. I mean, if you couldn't buy an appliance and you were going to go and sell a house, or if you couldn't buy the lumber, or if you couldn't buy the specific tile. I mean, you're either making concessions and going something different, or you're either making concessions and going something different, or you're, or you're waiting and and yeah, I mean I giggle about that, but it's, it's really hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, I, I think on the an episode in the future we're going to have to talk about the, the squatter slash, break-in slash, you know, I think. I think all of those things are missed when someone's thinking about oh hey, I could just, you know, make a quick buck and turn this really quick.
Speaker 2:So not to say that this is not a possibility, because obviously I mean we encourage it and that's why we talk through these mistakes and opportunities, but it can be a great business, but I just think you know, it's probably not as easy as one might think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think there's a ton of things that have to go your way right. So you know, the three mistakes that we're going to talk about today have nothing to do with market.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And I think you know.
Speaker 1:If you look at the United States over the last 50, 60 years, there's these seven to 10 year trends and I've seen people look at the United States over the last 50, 60 years. There's these seven to 10-year trends and I've seen people make a ton of money just by being at the right place at the right time, and I've seen phenomenal investors lose their ass on deals they should have made money on but the market changed, or the market turned, or interest rates went up, and that's not something you can necessarily control. So, just like any business, I think you have to get to a place where you know you're you're not putting too much out, like the way I always explain it to our internal team is, if we have to have that one go a specific way, then it's not the right deal for us. You know we need to be in a position where you know we have enough deal flow. You know if one goes better than expected and one goes way worse than expected, it's not the end of the world. We keep powering forward.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know and I think that's really you know, if you spend time in our office, you know what you'll hear me say every day is construction timeline, construction, timeline construction, budget. Those are the things that really determine if your business is going to be successful long-term. Right, because you're going to have some deals that are just not great and you're going to have phenomenal deals. I mean, we've had deals that we purchased, renovated, and you know we've made 10 times what we thought we were going to, because the market was just good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, and that's not.
Speaker 1:We didn't do anything that well. Like we just kind of got lucky.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I mean that's well, that probably brings us to the third point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think that the third one is actually pretty simple. It's just duration, you know. So number one is the actual physical asset that you're purchasing, all the characteristics. Number two is your construction budget. Number three is the time. So you know there are two types of investors out there. There are people that just put cash in and don't have any sort of leverage, which is a great business. It can be. Obviously, if you are a all cash investor, you don't have a loan, so you're not gonna have interest expenses and closing costs like upfront fees or points on the loan or things like that. The number of transactions you can probably do are limited. If you're all cash, then the duration is only important, based on the market. That's an overstatement. I mean, obviously, the faster you get in and out of a deal, the better your return on equity will be.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And so. But if you're using leverage, it actually becomes even more critical because you know the faster you get the dollars back and put them into another transaction, the better your long-term business model will be. But beyond that, the longer a transaction takes, you know, the better your long-term business model will be. But beyond that, the longer a transaction takes, you know, the higher your interest carry expenses will be. And, depending on who your lender is, you're going to have extension fees. I mean most fix and flip private lenders or hard money lenders out there will give you a one-year loan or maybe two years, and then they'll extend it, you know, but that's another half a point or a point, depending on the person.
Speaker 2:There's a cost to that, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I mean interest rates today for a fix and flip loan are nine and a half up to 15%, depending on where you go and what the transaction is. And so if you think you're gonna get in and out of a transaction in six months and it takes you 12 months, your profit was just eroded Right to get in and out of a transaction in six months and it takes you 12 months.
Speaker 1:Your profit was just eroded and so duration is incredibly important. There are a few things that affect duration. Obviously permits, so you need to plan for that in your purchase understanding how long a set of plans is going to take. If it requires structural engineering, how long will that take to get back? You know what's the turn time from your city If you have to go into plan check. Some cities that we operate in take eight weeks to get your response, just after you submit.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So if there's anything wrong with your plans, it might take another few weeks to get those corrections made. So that's one. You know. Your permit timelines you know. Second, and probably more important than any, is your construction timeline. I mean, if your contractors are kind of laissez-faire and you're not on site every day really grinding what's happening, it's going to take way longer.
Speaker 2:Right, they're taking multiple jobs sometimes, right, and I mean you're really. Your fate is in their hands. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then again, I mean, I'm not bashing contractors, but it's an incredibly low barrier of entry. You know, and you know frankly, there's not a lot of people that want that job today. You know, swinging hammers and moving lumber and putting roofs on houses, it's hard, yeah, it's really hard work. And so, know, swinging hammers and moving lumber and putting roofs on houses, it's really hard work. And so you've got to be extremely selective and you've got to manage the heck out of that person to make sure that they're executing on time. Um, you know that. I mean we just there's way too many examples that I can give you yeah I mean I'll go back to one example.
Speaker 1:Early in Bye Bye House's business cycle, very early, we'd already done three transactions with this contractor. It was generally pretty quick and, on top of things, we always have a project manager that's overseeing the contractor and we use some software to manage all the different deliverables. But this transaction was in Woodland Hills in in Los Angeles and it was a full renovation, including a new roof and new decking. So we're taking the whole roof off and putting new one on, and this contractor did not anticipate weather, so they took the roof off the house. That was the last thing. The whole interior was done, which is also an issue with this contractor. That shouldn't have been the last thing, but it was the last thing they did. And I think the issue was our PM got a we ran into. I can't remember the actual problem, but I think the permit for the roof was delayed for some reason because we're hillside.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:There was like a fire thing, and so we elected to continue with our interior renovation before the roof happened. But in any event, this roof, you know, this contractor takes the roof off, realizes rain's coming in. It's a long weekend, it's around Christmas, new Year's, and he goes on vacation and they put tarps over the roof. The tarps fail, oh no, and it rains profusely so were you like out there on the roof? 100. This was early in our business cycle, so I was on the road daily oh my god.
Speaker 1:I mean we were scrambling, we were trying to do everything in our power to keep the water out of this house, but I mean it probably costs us 150 to 200 grand because we had to redo all the drywall, we had to tear the floors out, put it back in, Um, you know it was a really, really big, big mistake. Um, and again, that's it's really. If he waits a week until he comes back from his vacation, then I don't want to wait a week usually and we didn't make that call. It was him. But again, the contract or the person you're working with and their timeline can change everything, and it's not just taking longer than anticipated. Interest rates could change, Weather can change things. There's a lot of different things that you know. The longer a construction project goes on, Exactly Higher risk right, the longer it goes.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I mean well, we touched on squatters and break-ins. I mean, the longer a property is sitting there, I think you know, the more opportunity for something terrible to happen.
Speaker 1:So yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And we've also. You know we've also had experiences. You know where you just get kind of a bad inspector Like if your contractor isn't the most personal or the best communicator. I'd highly recommend, you know, pulling the permits on your own and then being there for those inspections, because if your inspector does not like you or your contractor, they will make your life harder and that will add days to your construction project and you know that will that will kill budget.
Speaker 2:You are giving away all the secrets today.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think we could. We could go on about this for quite some time. I think there's. I think we could go on about this for quite some time. I think there's probably a lot. These are the top three, yeah, but even within those, it sounds like there are so many nuances to everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you brought up a good point, though I mean and I think it's important for our listeners to understand I mean we really have an abundance mentality. If you're interested in doing an investment, I mean even if you're in our neighborhood, we're here to help. I mean, we're obviously buyers of real estate. We want to buy it, fix it up, sell it. We want to sell as much single family real estate at Innovate as possible. But more than anything, I mean we want to be around good people and we really do encourage people to go out and be successful. Right, we're not, you know, we're not a closed book. We're very transparent. I think that the better that we do, you know, and the better that our competitors do, the better everyone will do Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 1:All the boats in the harbor kind of rise. And so you know, if there's things that you know you would like us to talk about, you know hit us up in the comments section. You know, reach out. We're happy to discuss any of those areas. But we wish you the best. For sure, if you've got transactions out there, don't make one of those three mistakes. And if you think you're making one of those three mistakes, you know, reach out. I'm sure we can help. So episode seven in the books. I guess the takeaway is we're going to come up with a new nickname for you. I have to get a nickname.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're working on it.
Speaker 1:And then we need to get Steve here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we need Steve. Yeah, maybe he's the one coming up with the nickname oh I don't want to hear those ones For being out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't want.